I think that we're all looking past a very simple sort of arrangement...de-essing. Either with a dedicated de-esser (Waves C1) or with a sidechained compressor (i.e. URS Comp/Lims). I saw one of Kenny Gioia's pro tools vids where he talked about how he handled overheads with compression after the EQ so that the compressor would suck down a little more on the high shelf boost he put on the OH's. I looked at what appeared to be the next logical leap, and I was greeted with overheads that were both brighter and more controlled. It's also nice to find that annoying spot in the overheads that makes them sound like someone's revving a jet engine in your ear and compress around that (again with a De-Esser or sidechained comp) and again, i've found that control really helps me USE my OH's when the cymbals get big and washy...as opposed to pulling them back because they are beating on my ears.

Wow, Ian, I had never thought of that before. I usually hit cymbals very softly so compression usually just brings them out more. Which has been very frustrating on the occasions when I'm trying to fix something. I'l have to try that next time.

Lance

I've never liked compression on my overheads. I like natural compression. I hit the tom toms a little harder and hit the cymbals with a softer touch, this allows me to keep my overheads louder than normal, which gives my overall drumkit a big sound. It's all about controlling the dynamics yourself. Unfortunately not all drummers play this away, so each session the engineer must make adjustments according to the way the drummer is playing.
John Bonham of Led Zeppelin played in a very dynamic way which allwoed the engineer to keep his overhead tracks louder. Hince, the "Bonham Sound".
I only like a small amount of compression on the mix bus and I squash my subkick, because the low end can be quite unruly.
Sometimes I'll compress my bass drum as well, but not very often.
Hope this helps.

That, really, is the answer. The more controlled the dynamics are from the guy behind the sticks...the better the drums sound.

quote:

The more controlled the dynamics are from the guy behind the sticks...the better the drums sound.

Along these lines, I tracked some drums yesterday using the Glyn Johns technique for the first time. What I got was a searing reminder of what I feel to be the most important ingredient. TUNE THE DRUMS!!! I only had and hour set up track and break down so I just kind of threw it together. Well, my house was about 31 degrees for a week due to the power being out from the ice storm. So I'm pretty sure jacked up my drum heads a little. Anyway, they sounded like dogshit but it's a good learning experience because I'm trying alot of new things to fix it. I'm about to go try the de-essing thing here in a minute.

Lance

I've heard of guys using a Limiter on Overheads with great results. I'm going to try that when my RNLA arrives a week from today from Mercanary Audio.
Temperature can affect the drums drastically, 31 degrees in your house? How do you sleep at night? Here in Arizona the high is 65 degrees with a low of about 45. I guess I'll stop complaining about how cold it is in the morning!

quote:

I've heard of guys using a Limiter on Overheads with great results. I'm going to try that when my RNLA arrives a week from today from Mercanary Audio.
Temperature can affect the drums drastically, 31 degrees in your house? How do you sleep at night? Here in Arizona the high is 65 degrees with a low of about 45. I guess I'll stop complaining about how cold it is in the morning!

We had to leave and go stay the mother in-laws so the kids didn't freeze. Anyway, that last drum track I did had some huge tom hits in it that were peaking about 15db above the rest of the track. But I was able to use the limiter on the 88RS to bring them down quite nicely with out affecting the rest of it. Also, the gate on the 88RS did a great job expanding the nasty ring on the snare. Man, I really love that thing.

Lance

BTW...go WAY easy on the De-Esser. Like, 2:1 easy. It's nice to control the high end, but it's easy to make your cymbals sound like they have a lisp. Also, I'm not sure I'd do that on a Glyn Johns styled setup...that De-Ess that makes the brass sound good can make the rest of your drums sound like poo. Once you're in the Glyn Johns world...a little shelving EQ goes a long way, but getting too specific with processing doesn't necessarily help out. It's really down to the performance to control the mix aspect of it...all you can do after the fact is like a drum buss sort of processing...some EQ and a little compression is about all you're going to get away with.

quote:

Also, I'm not sure I'd do that on a Glyn Johns styled setup...that De-Ess that makes the brass sound good can make the rest of your drums sound like poo.

Now are you talking Glyn Johns specific or do you mean any four mic style set up?

basically any setup where you are using your overheads as more than "cymbal mics." you can try it...just be judicious in your use.

For those of you who are compressing cymbols and saying it gets harsh I'll bet you are using plugs or budget comps. You need REAL comps to get smooth cymbols that are warm, not harsh. Early DBX 160-162 or 165's 160SL is great (dark and smooth). I also use a pair of Retro Sta-Levels for OH. Tubes don't know how to get harsh. Bonham had tons of parallel compression on OH and room mics. A ratio of 1 1/2 :1 goes a long way with cymbols. I would be curious how the RNLA works out for you though. BTW, I hope Santa brings you all some great gear for Christmas!

May you and your families have a safe and awsome Christmas!
Jeff

Although this is more of a mixing question than mastering, I like to follow the New York style of drum mixing for the most part, with a bit of a personal touch. The sound is built completely around the snare, which is sent to both the drum bus and a dedicated parallel compression bus of its own. There the snare is squashed until dead, and is used to mix in with the original to add fullness without overemphasizing the attack. After limiting, what is added next consists of whatever the snare is lacking in order to realize the sound desired. If the snare is missing a solid bottom, MaxxBass may be added to the chain next. More often however, tube saturation of some sort is added to give extra warmth and presence in the mix. This signal is mixed in with the original snare until the effect is barely noticeable, and then backed off a bit more. The toms are sent to their own bus with a simple limiter set to the level of the softest hits to keep them even for the most part. The overheads are also reserved a send, which will always have at least some EQ to remove unwanted lower end and emphasize key frequencies. Although sometimes I will use multi band on this bus, compression never works very well.

All of these buses are in turn sent to the drum bus, and this is where the NY style comes in. From the main drum bus, there is a send for additional parallel compression. The overall drum send is brick wall limited at about the average level, which like the snare is mixed in with the original drum send until the desired effect is achieved. Often this bus will have an EQ after the limiting to add extra low end thump and high end sparkle to the compressed part. It is the original full drum bus and the limited send which are finally sent to the master bus. Although having all these sends can be confusing at first, I find it gives much better control over the overall drum sound and to fine tune any adjustments needed. Care must be taken to always leave plenty of headroom from the beginning when mixing in this style however, particularly with the main drum bus, since so many sends are routed into it.

A bit of a long answer to a short question, but a bit of knowledge I wished to share with anyone who may be interested. Certainly not the only way to mix drums, but the way I have developed over the years, comments would be much appreciated.