I don't think American Christians have much reason to proselytize. I know, the bible tells 'em to let their light shine, bring 'em in, but they can use their heads and look around: everyone evrywhere is aware of Jesus. When they were told to go out man=fishing almost no one had heard of him. There are Christian churches everywhere in this land. We all know we can come to Jesus.

I think the master would say, "Not that light. Quit with the talk."

The light that would shine as something unique and intriguing would be this:

They would actually love their neighbors as themselves, treat others how they themselves want to be treated. Oh, and they'd be poor. I've read the bible pretty thoroughly. I don't see how anyone could miss the call to give up your stuff for others. It's plain as the letters on the page. Give up the extra cloak, give up all the extra stuff.

I never really met anyone like that, actually. Not sure it's in our nature. But I would surely recognize I was looking at a Christian.

Someone like that wouldn't need to "witness" to me. I'd see what they were onto. All the talk is just air. Everyone's got air. All the religious and the irreligious have clouds and wind.

But air is easy, and what the bible asks of Christians is not easy and is very different from the way most anyone lives in our society.

It isn't the talk that is the light they gotta shine. You get just one person actually following what is in the book, and they will definitely stand out like a light. They don't gotta go over the details everyone already knows.

They'd be well within their thinking rights to decide, "Let them come to me and ask if they wanna know what I'm on when I live this way. They've been told many times but they have not ears to hear nor eyes to see."

They don't gotta go door to door or start awkward conversations or put any pressure on at all. Seems like jesus would say, "Why do you do all that when they already have heard? Why do you not just practice what is written?"

Furthermore, they don't really even need to read scripture. Few of the thousands that were (I would presume) "saved" by sermons on the mount and such would have even been able to read. Besides he tells you right there that it's all you really need to know, and boils it down to the golden rule.

And I don't think it makes a wit of difference what anyone thinks or claims comes next, the afterlife, the prophesies, whatever...doesn't change a thing about what is clearly expected of a Christian.

Anyone would have their hands full for life trying to just get themselves in line with the sermon on the mount.

And you'd know you were looking at a Christian.

It all looks to me like so much excess: talk, arguing, doctrinal obsessions and disputes, attempts at political control, attempts to money-up personally and orginizationally.

None of it reminds me of Christianity.

Reminds me very much of Pharisees though, come to think of it.

Interesting thoughts, Tao. Lemme hit on a point you made about being poor.

quote:

Originally posted by Tao Jones:
Oh, and they'd be poor.

That doesn't refer to money. It means being "poor of spirit". As a reference, check out the First Beatitude, from Matthew 5:3, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."

Being poor of spirit means to realize and acknowledge God as the source of everything. A "rich" man refers to someone who is full of himself, and feels he is truly indpendent. Same sorta thing in Zen with the Empty Cup.

So, you could actually have a broke dood who doesn't have a penny to his name who is "rich". And there are also very wealthy people who are "poor".

I actually know quite a few rich people who got that way precisely because they are poor in spirit.

quote:

Originally posted by Tao Jones:

They would actually love their neighbors as themselves, treat others how they themselves want to be treated. Oh, and they'd be poor. I've read the bible pretty thoroughly. I don't see how anyone could miss the call to give up your stuff for others. It's plain as the letters on the page. Give up the extra cloak, give up all the extra stuff.

I never really met anyone like that, actually. Not sure it's in our nature.

Really? I know people like that. People who give, but also in their giving have abundance.

It's a metaphysical principle that can be seen in many religions and philosophical models - such as the Tao Ying/Yang symbol. Back to the Empty Cup thing in Zen. The emptying and filling cycle of the Tao. Negative/Positive. Breathing is the process of emptying so your lungs can fill again. In Christianity it's the metaphor, "My cup runneth over." The Bible is full of references of abundance for those who empty their cups before God. Reaping what you sow. Barns filled with plenty. Presses bursting with new wine. And there's the gifts of the spirit.

And it's not just a matter of "stuff". There are so many way to give - on so many levels - spritually, emotionally, time, attention, caring, knowledge, fix some old lady's fence...

Tao,

As a Christian I actually agree with most of what you have said but I do know people who live that way. People that give you the shirt off their back, serve in the community and are quite generous.

Unfortunately these examples are not media marketable and since our world view and these days our local community view is mostly shaped by some form media information.

Saint Francis of Assisi is quoted as saying (paraphrased) "Go into all the world teaching, making disciples of all nations and when nesessary use words."

Jesus said "They will know you are my disciples by your love".

I rarely see anything representing Biblically based Chistianity on TV even on "Christian" networks but I go to a church and have gone to chrurches where many people practice what you preach.

Why do I see it in everyday life but never on TV?

I'm not a paranoid conspiracy theory kind of person I just think its the economics of what sells comercials and what gets people to give money to the non profit networks.

TBN tunrs my stomach most of the time. Occasionaly there is a good discussion about a ministry reaching out to meet physical needs first so people have a chance to even contemplate and look for spiritual truths but frankly I wish it was off the air. It appears to do more damage than good IMHO.

One underlying truth in Christianity (or doctrine if you prefer) is that only God knows who hs actually laid down their life submitted to Him and experienced a life changing relationship with Him regardless of what we see on the outside.

Having a relationship with God in biblical Christianity is not performance based.

Being a good example or "light" in the world is however something that is based on what people see in your actions.

Based on what I see in the media and in real life in many instances I don't blame you.

I would caution you on throwing out the possible spiritual truths contained in Scripture based on the bad apples. I know there are some good, honest, prinicpled lawyers out there but I sure don't see much evidence on TV to support that belief. I have met and known some however.

seems to me that being a good Christian is just a striving towards a goal and an ideal of being a Godly person. I know many on that road, although I am not one myself.

And I have yet to meet a practicing Christian, who has said that he has attained that goal or has said that he is even close. In fact just the opposite : They are quite humble and self-jacket themselves as sinners.

Agreed that the noise level politically is pretty high though, from the Fallwell camp. I could use a bit less of him and the like.

I was baptized Orthodox many years ago after looking for the "source".

It's very, very different. If you want an eye-opening experience into what the early church was like (pre-schism), find an Eastern Orthodox church. Many Greek churches have "westernized" so you'll need a Serbian, Russian, etc. Or a non-reformed, old-calendar Greek church.

The reading of the Holy Saints is very interesting as well - some really old writings from back in the days of the caves.

Anyway, Orthodoxy, I believe views the protestant view of "born again" or guaranteed acceptance into heaven as a non-starter, for example. Lots of interesting differences.

Anyhow, those on a spiritual journey, wondering where it all came from should check it out - the majesty and mystery of the Orthodox Catholic church is still intact. Hey, real, warm wine and actual soaked bread for passover, given by monks in the mountains can't be all bad right? And if you're an art fan, check out the iconography - pretty stunning stuff.

I run into problems with people of faith persecuting others of different faiths. Even in the early days, the destruction of the Gnostics as heretics, was not so nice.

Anyway, I found a certain amount of contentment (as much as I can anyway) with Orthodoxy only because Protestantism has been purposely stripped of everything and it rings hollow and plastic - just my observations. Protestantism is cool if you're needing a place to go on a Sunday to do business with other "pillars" of the community or to rub elbows with the well-to-do folks, I've found. More of a social club than anything else, some singing, some rock band entertainment, maybe a little food after, then of course the "pass the shame plate" is not so nice. We've got a big one here that does the "flop on the floor and speak in tongues too". And, they're not Pentecostal - which I thought was a prerequisite. Apparently it just started at this real big corporate church here and it caught on -- scary!

We have all kinds of church scandals around here, so forgive me if I'm cynical.

Anyway, just 2 cents. I'm a terrible Christian BTW.

-Adam

quote:

Originally posted by Dot:
Interesting thougts, Tao. Lemme hit on a point you made about being poor.

quote:

Originally posted by Tao Jones:
Oh, and they'd be poor.

That doesn't refer to money. It means being "poor of spirit". As a reference, check out the First Beatitude, from Matthew 5:3, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."

quote:

And it's not just a matter of "stuff". There are so many way to give - on so many levels - spritually, emotionally, time, attention, caring, knowledge, fix some old lady's fence...

While I agree with that second quote, there's a bit more to it than that. There are a couple of biblical passages that give the reader the impression that material posessions are of no concern to a Christian. The wording varies somewhat depending on which translation of the Bible you have, but Mat 5:40, 5:42 and Luke 6:30 have long been regarded as examples of basically giving ones posessions away to those who ask for them. There are other scriptural examples of this but I can't recall them off the top of my head. In any case, these, plus the fact that Jesus himself was portrayed as "poor" in the material sense are perhaps at the core of Tao's thoughts on being poor as a Christian (correct me if I'm wrong there Tao).

Assuming Jesus existed and lived the way the Bible potrays him, I suspect he'd be quite disappointed with the majority of those who claim to follow his teachings and examples. If it's at all possible to separate Jesus the man from Jesus the myth, I think the lesson becomes one of simply trying to treat your fellow human beings with respect and dignity.

Dot- I don't base that on blessed are the poor. I thank skeetch for some of the many examples because I don't want to look them up, and I don't really feel like hammering a point. When I read it, it seems pretty obvious that a rich Christian would be some kind of rarity. YOu might say it would be harder for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.

But, Man, creativity is really sparked by the need to make the bible fit into our lives. I mean, there's no way it would survive as a major religion if there were not ways to rephrase what seems obvious into something of a metaphor. Of course Jesus couldn't be saying we can't get rich, that we should be more like poor because we give it away, give it away now.

Can you imagine how few followers Christianity would have if they couldn't find some wiggle room on that issue?

I think your interest in spiritual stuff is cool. You feel you've met people who fit the type, maybe I just see the same people in a different way. I see plenty of people I consider good folks. I never met anyone I thought seemed to live like Jesus called for.

Okay, I take that back. Maybe some guys I knew working and living in the soup kitchen, but really they started out as the bums and worked into being the responsible caretakers. Show me the middle class convert that gives it away and goes to do that work.

I'm sure there are many. I hang out very rarely at the places where they'd do their good works.

When contemplating that thought though, one also has to remember that sometimes the mentally unhinged do some pretty drastic stuff too, and after you have a lengthy conversation with 'em you realize there's a screw loose. But hey, maybe that's probably okay with Jesus.


I'm not trying to say that someone need do what Jesus points to in order to be a good person. My own take on the world wouldn't have me leaving wife and children tofollow him around (as he clearly states you gotta be ready to do). I guess I'd start with family defense and work out from there. Jesus makes some sense. Machievelli makes some sense, too.

My favorite spiritual scripture type book (and I haven't read them all), has been the Tao te Ching for a few years now. I like the unknowing balance in it. There's no breath wasted on trying to explain what happened, what will happen, what are the rules...oh hell, I've just run up against the obvious... there isn't any way to explain what moves me about that stuff.

But I was read Exodus last night. Wow. soak that wild stuff up and sleep on it. Should be songs coming down the line soon.

Dot says,"And it's not just a matter of "stuff". There are so many way to give - on so many levels - spritually, emotionally, time, attention, caring, knowledge, fix some old lady's fence..."

Ah, but it reminds me of what Bernadette said in "The Jerk" when Steve and her fortunes fell: "It's not the money I care about...it's just all the stuff."

People have a hard time giving up that stuff.

Scooter, St. Frank said that in a world where there wasn't a church on every corner. Guys like that felt it was okay to look around and size up the times they were in. I' suggesting it might be okay for modern American Christians to do the same.

No one around here has missed the opportunity. We all know the scoop.

quote:

And I have yet to meet a practicing Christian, who has said that he has attained that goal or has said that he is even close. In fact just the opposite : They are quite humble and self-jacket themselves as sinners.

Maybe if they gave away their stuff?

quote:

Hey, real, warm wine and actual soaked bread for passover, given by monks in the mountains can't be all bad right? And if you're an art fan, check out the iconography - pretty stunning stuff.

Sounds perfect. Where do I line up?

Where are you at? I could probably find a couple of monasterys you could visit that would be close. The monks are very cool people/

I'm friends with a few of the monks here, they have a really cool place up in the mountains, about halfway to the coast.

The funny thing about Orthodox monks is that people get kind of scared of them these days, they wear all black and have long beards and hair. Great guys though, all have very interesting backgrounds. The monastery here in Platina (about 40-minutes away) publishes a ton of books. Father Seraphim Rose and another priest founded the monastery. I never got a chance to meet him before he died, but his writings have gone all over the world. Here's a bit of history on Father Seraphim Rose

Anyway, it's interesting, even if you're only interested in the history of the church. The mystery and majesty hasn't been stripped out for political correctness or expedience and comfort (you stand during services, for example). The services are not like anything you've seen at a protestant or even Roman Catholic church. Singing the Psalms, etc.

The music (call and response chants) and artwork are worth looking into as well, if you're only interested in that aspect of it.

Lots of cool stuff.

The monastery in Platina

Tao,
Where does it say in the Bible, "Look to man, to see who I Am?".... or does it constantly say "Look to Me first?"... We are all broken people with problems that are in need of a Saviour. Look in the old Testament, and new Testament as well to understand who the people are that God "Uses". Most of them were absolutely NOT worthy of even cleaning toilets ...anywhere!!
Its true that Believers should reflect a certain love, joy and acceptance, but with you as their judge, you would probably not notice any of them.

If you have the desire to see Mother Theresa's goodness and love, and patience in all people to believe in Jesus, then you might as well throw in the towel...which is what He wants anyway, then we can change.

quote:

Maybe if they gave away their stuff?

yep, as far as I know only Mother Teresa fits that bill. She took The vow of poverty seriously.

The Super Rich/Christian. Hmmm... That is a dichotomy and I do remember the "blessed are the poor" line from going to Sunday School when I was young.

I do wonder though that sometimes money is just a result of playing the game well.

But if attaining more and more of it is the end game, the motivating factor in a persons life, then that does seem to be in contradiction with Jesus' teachings.

just wonderin..

That's the theme throughout.

The least of us is the best of us, etc. Those who do not have here, shall want for nothing there.

Dichotomy as you say is a common thread. The meek (not the strong) shall inherit the earth. Easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom etc.

Other contradictions would be professing to be a Christian, yet prosecuting anyone or anything (a war for example). Forgiveness in ALL things, passifistic behavior right up until death essentially is THE WAY.

Hard to pull off.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Flynn:

quote:

Maybe if they gave away their stuff?

yep, as far as I know only Mother Teresa fits that bill. She took The vow of poverty seriously.

The Super Rich/Christian. Hmmm... That is a dichotomy and I do remember the "blessed are the poor" line from going to Sunday School when I was young.

I do wonder though that sometimes money is just a result of playing the game well.

But if attaining more and more of it is the end game, the motivating factor in a persons life, then that does seem to be in contradiction with Jesus' teachings.

just wonderin..

King Solomon was the richest man in the world, and to this day, no sheik, millionaire, billionaire, in any country has had as much.
(Solomon was one of the most "Godly" men on the planet)

Money (mamman) or personal possesions is not unGodly, NOR unBiblical at all. Find it in scripture where it it is a sin to be wealthy?

You cant find it. Nor can you find any passage that says, "You must be poor and suffer to be justified by God".

Whether or not the "double honor" a true man of God deserves is misused, is the responsibility of that person to use it in a dignified manner, putting God first...

If anyone can find a passage that states being of riches while on the Earth is wrong?? Bust it out..

Being obsessed with money, and putting it in the forefront of everything else, especially God, IS wrong....

Some rich Pastors in the public eye fall hard, thats true. That just shows us that we are all the same....no real believer in God thinks they are above non-believers...God thinks of us all the same. How much we are valued,loved, and adored.

How would a rich Pastor react to our problems, when we fall on bad times?!?! See, thats the difference.

Guitwiz, your first post was quite cool to me.

The second is same old look away as far as I can see. You say show you where it says it:

How about it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

But hey Man, I got no prob with ya. I'm into makin' more money.

A google search turned this up and explains it much better than I could.
http://www.ancasterchurch.on.ca/sermons/oct399.html

It's quite long, so here's a smaller section from it:

It's easier, said the Lord, for that big camel to go through the tiny eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. The point is that a rich man through his own efforts cannot enter the kingdom. And if a rich man cannot save himself by his efforts and good deeds, than no one can be saved. The point is not that it is easier for poor people to enter the kingdom. We ought not to think that. That there is some inherent holiness to being poor. That as long as you don't have many earthly possessions, you'll be saved. That, too, is a salvation by works.

Those who heard understood this. For they asked the Lord: "Who then can be saved?" If it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, who
then can be saved? That's what they were asking.

You see the way they were thinking, don't you? Rich men are able to build synagogues, give money to orphanages, offer alms to the poor, refurbish temples, and fund many other worthwhile causes. If anyone is saved, surely it is they. The Lord says that such people cannot enter the kingdom by such noble efforts. Well, then we commoners who do not have the wealth to carry out such noble deeds don't have a chance. "Who then can be saved?"

The ruler found the demand of the Lord too hard. So did the bystanders.

The Lord answered the question and resolved the difficulty. He said, "What is impossible with men is possible with God." Salvation is completely the work of God. No one, rich or poor, can get himself into the kingdom. No one, by his great efforts and achievements, inherits eternal life. An inheritance is a gift, not an earned right. No one has rights in the kingdom, not even rich men with all their potential for good works.


I'll also combine my response with what Skeetch posted above:

quote:

Assuming Jesus existed and lived the way the Bible potrays him, I suspect he'd be quite disappointed with the majority of those who claim to follow his teachings and examples. If it's at all possible to separate Jesus the man from Jesus the myth, I think the lesson becomes one of simply trying to treat your fellow human beings with respect and dignity.

While Jesus did come to earth to set a good example, I believe that his BIG purpose was to die in our place for our sins. Accepting this free gift and having a personal relationship with Him is the TRUE way to find out who is a Christian, not by how much is in their checking account. But unless you can see into other's hearts and minds, you may not always be able to tell who is or is not a Christian, since everyone continues to mess up and fall short constantly.

The King Solomon example that Guitwizz mentioned is a perfect example to show that you CAN be Godly and have money simultanously. There are plenty other examples in the bible as well. It's not the "money" itself that is the problem, but the love for money and putting money above God that is the problem. For the bible says not to put any other God's before Him.

-tkr

Bravo. Nicely done.

Tao,

I do see where you are coming from with Jesus parable about the rich man and there is the account of a rich young ruler coming to Jesus who after listing all his good deeds asks "What can I do to enter the kingdom of heaven" and Jesus responds that he must sell all that he has and give it to the poor. The rich young ruler walks away sad and disheartened.

In the old testament there are numerous stories where God financially blesses people inspite of others conspiring against them. There are numerous verses promising blessings and the ability to create wealth to the Isrealites.

The balance is found the verse "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Having wealth or the lack there of has no connection with spirituality or Christianity.

Loving wealth and placing before your love of God is a problem both on an individual level and as a corporate body of believers.

There is another aspect of Christianity that may be somewhat controversial and I don't want to steer this thread on a side tangent (if some one wants to discuss this as a seperate issue lets start a seperate thread).

I came across a book called What God wishes Christians knew about Christianityby Bill Gillham http://shop.lifetime.org/lifetimeguarantee/item_1565075579.htm
that radically changed my understanding of the Bible and the Gospels. I found the book hard to read because the author despite having a PHD writes in a "back woods" style of semantics that put me off "Hey y'all" kind of things but the substance of what he writes is outstanding.

Tao I am assuming from my readings you have fairly good understanding of the Bible and spent a few mornings in Sunday School at some point in time.

Let me ask this question;

Were the Gospels and the context Jesus spoke and taught under in the Old Testament theology or New Testament theology? Yes we find the Gospels in what we call the "New Testament" but who was Jesus speaking to?

How we interpret what Jesus taught and said radically change and hinge on this distinction.

If we view Jesus teachings in the Gospels as this is what I expect of you to come to the Father and enter the Kingdom of heaven then none of us have snow balls chance in hell.

If we understand that Jesus lived under the "Old Covenant" and His life and teachings were being shared to;
1. Show us that it is impossible for us to in any way, shape or form "earn" our way into God's grace or spiritual salvation. In this scenario when reading the Gospels we understand that the bar is just too high for anyone to qualify based on their own deeds. Try forgiving someome not just seven times but 70 x seven times. I can make it to two or three on a good day under my own power but I would never even make to seven on a stellar day.

2. Paradoxically while explaining how high the standard of righteousness was (when God's characacter is the bar) he walked the line and demonstrated it before their very eyes.

I have know some of the most "saintly" people from Catholics, Baptists, Greek Orthodox....... and I have known completely flawed, hypocritical people from the same local congregation. I have even been the fundamentally flawed, hypocritical person sullying the reputation of a local body of believers.

Sometimes those who speak the loudest in volume have the least to say or are least qualified to say it. Usually it is the quiet ones going about their Fathers business that in reality speak volumes without speaking a word.

I hope someday to be in the latter group but I rest assured in my Fathers love, that His love for me is undconditional and it is His desire that I do the same.