Hey all I record Rock Music
(Music sounds like Kelly Clarkson meets Nickleback)

I am using Pro tools M-power with an Apogee Mini Me A/D converter/Pre amp with a Rode K2 Microphone. I been using the pre-amps in the Mini me and they are pretty clean, But now I am looking for the next step.

Now I am looking for the best pre amp in the 1,500-2000 range that will help me achieve the best sound for the Rock genre.

I am looking at the
Great River ME1NV- I heard this is a nice Neve sounding clone for the price
Avalon 737SP- I heard this was a great Popular channel strip
Avalon M5- I heard this had a better pre amp than the 737Sp
Millennia TD1- I heard this was a very transparent detailed pre
Solid State logic XLogic Alpha Channel- I heard this was a great buy.

I am missing any other good pre amp's in this range?

In a way I really don't care for a channel strip, because I can always buy a FMR RNC compressor. I would rather put the bulk of my money on the pre-amp part.

I really want a Class-A pre-amp mainly for the vocals.
I will be using "Drum kits from hell" sampler for drums,
"Eleven" plugin for guitars and bass,
and samples for strings, keys, pianos etc.
I really will be mixing and recording mostly in the box.

So basically this Pre amp will serve for mostly vocal over dubs and DI for Bass and guitars, and maybe to mic an acoustic guitar once in a while.

With that said, would I benefit in the Rock genre of vocals with the big Neve colored sounds of the Great River, or with the transparent clean sounds of the Millennia.

I would love to actually try all of this equipment out but the stores I went to (Sam Ash and Manny's Music) would not allow me to try before I buy because they do not have sound testing rooms, thats why I would like professional opinions.

Giving the facts I given plus my genre and my equipment, what would you choose if you were the producer of this Rock Project(Kelly Clarkson/Nickleback sound)?

I really want that over the top edgy vocal sound that sounds very professional for both male and female vocals.

What are your opinions?

It sounds like you've already got 'clean' covered with the Mini-Me, so maybe picking a 'character' piece like the Great River, one of the Universal Audio pieces, or something similar might give you the most variety?

Mikey, I'd recommend you look at the preamps in around the 8-10 range on this mic-preamp chart.

OTOH, if you already have a Mini-Me, you might get as much or more mileage out of adding a serious compressor, such as a Distressor or and an 1176.

Hey thanks for the fast responses. I highly appreciate it.

I believe the Mini-me cannot patch a compressor because its a preamp A/D converter combination. If it can patch a compressor than how?

Would I gain a lot more with the Great river, Millenia or Avalon compared to my Mini-me for Rock vocals?

Are the Distressor and 1176 compressors in my price range or would I be better off with a RNC compressor plus pre amp?
I want the best sound for the dollar.

Dot, what are your opinions with the pre amps and compressors I listed and what would you get extra if you were producing this Modern Rock project?

Great River or Pacifica. Can't go wrong with either.

jmp

The Mini-Me doesn't have an insert point, so an outboard compressor isn't really going to help you

But If you were to get the GR 1NV it's one of the few pre's out there with a post pre insert, so should you add a compressor later on (which for "rock" would be a good add) then you're totally g2g.

Based on what you stated you need the preamp for, the Great River is a no brainer - as far as I see, you're looking for a single ch pre, so the Pacifica is going to cost more for 2ch's but would be a great option also, should you want to spend more.

I have a 737, and Millennia STT-1 Origin that I use quite often. the 737 ain't that great for "rock". The origin has more options than the TD1 but again, get the GR and you'll have one great ch with some weight and the 2 decent pre's in the mini-me.

From your list, I think the GR is the best choice for what you want.

The RNC is a nice box, but not what comes to mind for tracking rock vocals.

Steve

The pres on the cleaner and transparent side of the scale, from 7 down to 1, are not going to give rock music the "oomph," energy, and "kick" that you're going to get from more colored preamps.

I'd recommend Pacifica, API, GR NV, Purple Biz.

Instead of the transparent RNC, in that same price range, you should check out the more colored RNLA. Although, ultimately you're going to need a serious compressor to really shape the sound. That's where something like the Distressor or 1176 would come in. For now you could use a software version of the 1176 on mixdown.

Right now I am looking at the Rode K2 mic going into the Great river ME-Nv1 pre amp going into the RNC compressor.
Does any one know any songs recorded with this vocal chain that I listed?

Where would I find something like this? I listened to the listening sessions and I think they are awesome, but I would love to know if a fully recorded rock song was recorded with this vocal chain, so I can hear it in its glory. (I know Nickleback for their last album used a K2 mic with a Neve preamp with a Avalon channel strip for eq, not sure of compression.)

Also Dot, can you please explain the differences between the Rnc and the RNLA with recording the rock vocal I am wanting to receive.

It seems like the RNC is a compressor and the RNLa is a limiter? Am I wrong? What would benefit my vocal more and how does it work?

It would make it easier to know the differences so I can make the correct choice with the RNLa and RNC. I appreciate your expertise?

Also the distressor you are recommending is of which model? I notice they make a few different models of the distressor.

Thanks again DOT.

Hey Dot

(Just another idea we can debate over)

I spoke to another producer that says that I don't "need" need another mic pre amp and the Mini-Me preamps are clean and good enough. He says I should skip the Rode K2 and get the Blue Mouse microphone (1,299) because the Mouse microphone has a lot of bite and attitude for Rock music.

By going with the Mini-Me as the only pre I cannot hook any compressors into it because it does not have any insert points because its a A/D converter pre-amp combo. But the Mini-me does have a soft limit function that allows to select a few compression curves, that I could use to compensate for a lack of a true compression for the time being.


I know this is a curve ball to my initial post, but what are your opinions on the Blue Mouse microphone and can I work it to get a good Rock vocal sound. I know I won't get the Neve sound of the Great river or the smooth dynamics of the RNC compressor. But I could always use distortion plugins on vocals and compression in Pro-tools such as 1716 plugins like you recommended.

I kinda Like the Mouse microphone- Mini me idea because its less electronics to plugin into the wall which is already pretty full at the moment, but am I crazy to pass up a Great River pre amp, K2 Microphone, RNC compressor for roughly the same price. Am I losing a lot of quality sound?

Your opinion?

The few times that I've not liked my K-2 going into a Tampa was my fault not the chain.

Mikey,

Don't spend money on a specialty Mic unless you know it works well for a specific singer.
You need options.
I have a $5k Tube mic that often doesn't get used because it doesn't fit THAT singer.

I would get the Great River and a compressor if you can afford it. The ART Pro VLA is an excellent cheap compressor.

If you do get a K2, also pick up a Shure SM7b.
The SM7 often gets used for Rock Vocals and should always be in the lineup when looking for a vocal mic for a specific singer (especially rock).

jmp

After spending a couple of weeks trying to make the same decision: what pre to buy? ...I finally decided on one that wasn't on my first list, the Demeter VTMP-2C ...it's a two channel tube pre ...should be here in a week or so.

Do what you will but that isn't likely a good choice for your only preamp.
Especially for the type of music you described.

Preamps like that err on the dark side and if you track a lot of things through it, that tone will build up (guess how I know?)

Singers are generally after an open airy sound and that pre will fight you on that unless paired with a Bright mic.

When the pre comes in you should quickly track some vocals with it and take note of how much High EQ you have to add in Mix.
If it needs too much you will be adding lots of noise and usually sibilance along with it.

jmp

quote:

Originally posted by John Mark Painter:
Do what you will but that isn't likely a good choice for your only preamp.
Especially for the type of music you described.

Preamps like that err on the dark side and if you track a lot of things through it, that tone will build up (guess how I know?)

Singers are generally after an open airy sound and that pre will fight you on that unless paired with a Bright mic.

When the pre comes in you should quickly track some vocals with it and take note of how much High EQ you have to add in Mix.
If it needs too much you will be adding lots of noise and usually sibilance along with it.
jmp

Bright mics I have. I've been using a c451b and a c414 to track guitar and they're plenty bright. I also recently traded for a Blue Kiwi, again bright. I'm going to use the Demeter 90% of the time for acoustic guitar tracks. I really think it's going to work out fine for me. As far as my vocal tracks, I've been using a Solidtube going through a LiquidChannel and I really like the edge it gives my voice.

The Demeter pre I've used wasn't CLOSE to dark...in fact, it was quite thin and "untubey"...YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:
The Demeter pre I've used wasn't CLOSE to dark...in fact, it was quite thin and "untubey"...YMMV.

This is a piece of gear that gets all kinds of different opinions depending on who you ask. Some people say it's dark, some say it's not. Some swear by it for acoustic guitar, some are looking for something else.

My hunch is that this pre is probably pretty versatile and you can coax some different moods out of it. I'll find out soon enough though.

I agree on the great rivers preamp. It adds just the right amount of weight and attitude to a rock track. $1000 for the GR plus the the quinessential 1176 compressor (1200 used), you are right at the pinical (?) of great rock vocals, as long as you can sing! A ton of great rock vocals have been cut with that comibination.

JD

Update

I got the Vintech audio X73i Mic Pre-amp (Neve 1073 Clone).
I also took Dot's advice and also picked up the Distressor EL8X.
Now I am looking for a good lead vocal mic to run this vocal chain.

I am currently using the Rode NTK and it sounds very good in this chain, but I am hearing a proximity effect on all of the singers S's.
It sounds like a snake -SssSsSss.
I know the NTK is known for this effect and it's starting to bother me, considering I do not have a de-esser in my vocal chain.

I was thinking of upgrading to the Rode K2, but I am afraid I will have the same problem.

I am singing vocals in the style that ranges from Nickleback, Kelly Clarkson, Daughtry, Jonas brothers, 3 days grace, 3 doors down.

I ultimately want the Neumann U87, but that is going to take months of saving up.

I am looking for a "Now" mic for lead Rock vocals mostly and back up vocals and acoustic guitar (Martin D15) secondary.

What microphone would you recommend with my current vocal chain running into my Vintech X73i (Neve Clone) into the EL8X into the Apogee Mini-me A/D converters into the Firewire 1814 into Mac Powerbook (Soon Mac pro) into Pro-tools Mpower.

I just want a good lead vocal mic that will sound as good if not better than my Rode NTK minus the Proximity effect.

Thank you in advance.

Hey, I just realized that the proper name of the proximity effect I am talking about is called Sibilance.