Pop, thanks for the explanation on the Red/Blue Korbys. Just seemed backwards from what I would have thought.

Kel, I had the same impression as you re: the 1176. Dan hyperlinked to the UA reissue and later said it was "easily available". I took that to mean the RI as well.

Steve

To answer some of the questions:

1. The M149 was ours, not Blackbird's. We took it to use as the baseline.

2. We were confused on the Korby Kat Red also. We actually got on line while Dennis was testing to see what Korby's advertising said. In our test, the Red was a dead ringer 47, only better than the real one on Dennis's voice. The Blue sounded thin and trebley ala the 251 & C12's he sang into.

3. The compressor was a re-issue 1176 not a vintage model. I don't remember whether we tried a LA-3A. I do remember stopping playback early when running him through the Distressor. It was a bad mis-match.

4. Dennis is not a singer although John Netti said he was better than many of the singers he records at Blackbird. Dennis owns our Indy Car race team (along with a bunch of other businesses). Why is this important? Well, in the big scheme of things, it's not important at all. We're just a couple of competitive guys that want to make demo recordings that sound as good as the pros. It wouldn't be difficult for Dennis to hire any studio in Nashville along with the best players, engineers, etc... to record our original songs. Hell, he's got enough money to hire George Strait to sing them if he wanted to. We're doing it because it's fun and another arena to compete in.

5. I've read, and Pop inferred that the U47 is somewhat colored. What we were trying to do in this search was find a combination that made Dennis sound like Dennis. He has a good quality, interesting and compelling voice; we wanted to capture it just like I've heard him sing in the motorhome traveling to races. To that point, the U47, Korby Red, Korby Kat 4 47 and Manley Black let Dennis sound like he sounds when he's singing to you in a room; with no amplification. No matter where I've listened, those mics sound like Dennis. I've heard him sing for 25 years and I know his voice; so, by my definition, the 47 style mics are not colored since they sounded just like the source.

6. The Brauner is the mic with the u-shaped sheild around it. This mic surprised me as it may have been the worst match of all that we tried (other than our own M149).

quote:

I've read, and Pop inferred that the U47 is somewhat colored. What we were trying to do in this search was find a combination that made Dennis sound like Dennis.

By measurement it's not accurrate. Neither is a U67 or many other go to vocal mics. My point, was that "accurrate" and "getting the playback to sound as similar as it does in the room" are not one in the same. That they see so much use because all their hills and valleys that scientist would frown on are responsible for translating the close mic'd vocal to playback in an honest way.

I'll never forget working with an operatic soprano once that would sit beside me on the piano bench and the sound would give me goosebumps...and I never could get that to translate. I kept trying to stay out of her way with "clean" mics/etc...it takes the "hype" of various vocal mics to translate as "natural".

I love the Manley Black...but, you can snap your fingers in front of it and hear the big low end and crisp snap that's NOT there in reality...it's applying that to vocals, too...but, with vocals, it's like compensation for something lost in the translation to two speaker playback, IMO.

Competitive recording, huh? I never thought about it that way...

wow, thanks for taking the time to share all that with us Dot.

Great pics - great gear porn.

T

I'm with Tube--some serious porn here!


Haven't had much to say in this thread but it's been a very interesting read--thanks for sharing this with us, gents!

quote:

To answer some of the questions:

Hey thanks to all for the info and the great thread

Great pics and info., thanks.

evt

Pop, I think I agree with your comment about the Manley Black in regard to the low end. On Dennis's voice there wasn't any crispness though. On his voice the mic actually softened things and you lost some of the gravel definition that's a part of his sound. In my words, I would say that his vocal was slightly mushy.

Regarding the competitive comment:

1. We compete at everything. Who gets their job done first, who eats the fastest, drinks the most, etc...

2. When we started about a year ago, friends and family laughed at us when we told them what we were going to do. Our competitive nature kicked in and said "we'll show 'em". They're not laughing now and we're getting requests for copies of our "in process, continually improving" CD.

3. When trying to learn about the recording process on forums like this one, the guys at 3DAudio gave me a bunch of crap and said to hire it out. Well, same thing, "f*#k you guys you don't know who you're dealing with". I won't be back to that forum and is exactly why we've been working with Dan. He's been very supportive and consider him a part of our team. In our racing world, it's, you're with us or against us.

4. There's a bunch of songwriters out there with good songs. We feel that it's a competition to see who gets theirs recorded. We don't want to lose the opportunity to sell a good song because the production is bad.

quote:

Originally posted by p13:

2. When we started about a year ago, friends and family laughed at us when we told them what we were going to do. Our competitive nature kicked in and said "we'll show 'em". They're not laughing now and we're getting requests for copies of our "in process, continually improving" CD.

3. When trying to learn about the recording process on forums like this one, the guys at 3DAudio gave me a bunch of crap and said to hire it out. Well, same thing, "f*#k you guys you don't know who you're dealing with". I won't be back to that forum and is exactly why we've been working with Dan. He's been very supportive and consider him a part of our team. In our racing world, it's, you're with us or against us.

4. There's a bunch of songwriters out there with good songs. We feel that it's a competition to see who gets theirs recorded. We don't want to lose the opportunity to sell a good song because the production is bad.

interesting approach, I hope it works for you. I suppose I'd understand 3Daudio's(not familiar with them at all) take on your situation. Maybe if one of them said they'd be sitting in a car next you you on the racetrack in a year you might have a similar opinion. Dan's going to be a good source of help.
Care to share a song with us?

OH yea, since that crappy M149 is laying around collecting dust perhaps I could use it here for cowbell or something. Of course since you probably got one of the sucky, defective ones I'll take it off your hands and try to fix it here

Kel,

See the Studio Forums Classifieds for the M149.

I don't want anyone to think the M149 is a "crappy" mic. It just wasnt' the right match. One of the things we learned was great mics can sound really bad with certain voices. The C12 and Tele 251 were so bad during the test that we didn't even complete recording the entire phrase. Nobody would classify either of those mics as "crappy".

And the M149 has a lot in common with those mics...despite the Neumann name...it's really like a cross design--part 251, part M49...sure to disappoint anyone looking for either.

FWIW, I like the M149. It IS a pretty decent match for me...but, if you look at my perfect match (so far ) -the INnertube modded 87i--it's actually a Neumann cap/grill married to a C12'ish head amp...it makes sense that it would work for me.

Works for Sarah McLachlan and Robbie Williams and Rob Thomas, too, I hear. One of my fave producers, Guy Chambers, calls it "one sweet sounding mic".

Somebody buy it...I mean...really--put me out of my misery. I'm too damn tempted. "Must not buy more mics...must not buy more mics..."

I'm afraid that's nowhere near the Kel deal price I'd insult them with. Pass

Dot,

The KAT 251 at Blackbird is EXCEPTIONALLY good. I Actually took the Photo you posted of the Korby Red (they're friends of mine)

jmp

I'd agree about the KAT 251. It didn't work on our vocal, but sounded just like the vintage 251 tested. I really liked the entire KAT line, the 47 capsule sounded as good as the Neumann 47, just minutely different. I'm saving now to pick up the the KAT Convertible system.

quote:

I'd agree about the KAT 251. It didn't work on our vocal, but sounded just like the vintage 251 tested

Korby tuned it to sound just like Blackbird's favorite rental 251.

I plan to pick up a 47 cap for mine soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Popmann:
Why would you think it's an "off the shelf" 1176? I didn't know that Blackbird has reissues...I think they have a RI La2a...but, they have a rack of nothing BUT different vintages of 1176.

Was it a reissue?

We have had 2) UA1176LN reissue comps in our inventory for some time now. It's possible they got one.
We, in fact, also have had 2) reissue LA2A comps for about the same length of time. One of these is always in the vox chain of a very well known male vocalist which also includes an Averill API312 and classic U47.
Sorry for the late reply. I've been a lurker in the past and just signed on today.
I have signed on to quell rumors about the place. If I can be of service with facts, let me know and I'll do my best.
Rock on!
Rolff

quote:

I have signed on to quell rumors about the place.

Hopefully, I didn't say anything someone interpreted as "bad"...if so, my apologies. Not intended. I was just pointing out that as rule, you tend to have more original issue gear than reissued stuff--that they shouldn't assume it was a reissue.

Blackbird rules.

Now knowing that we have a Blackbird member; I just want to say how welcome we felt during our equipment test there in December. We certainly didn't expect to be treated like real artists and I can't say enough about John Netti. It was an experience of a lifetime. Many thanks from Dennis and I.

I wish we had a "Blackbird" here in Van

But we still get to play with slutty stuff Like today..We busted out a brand new Chandler LTD1 and Chandler Germanium Tone EQ [both new buys] on drums...all I can say is holy crap!@?..Wicked, wicked stuff on drums